Discussion Questions (some repeat yesterday's study questions)
- How might we begin to see our own sins more clearly instead of focusing so much on other people's sins?
- What impact do you think the "softening" of language regarding sin is having on our lives? On our churches?
- How might what we learned today influence what we say, do and/or think?
Personal Reflection
- During this session, what discoveries, quotations or verses especially connected with you? Why?
- What "respectable" sins might you be tolerating in your life?
- In what ways might these sins be affecting your life, your relationships and your relationship with God?
- What do you think God wants you to learn from that situation?
- What one insight regarding "respectable" sins would you like to begin applying to your spiritual journey this week?
As a reminder, for next week, it's chapters 4-6.
Post away, ladies!
Beth
9 comments:
Hi All!
This is a miracle if I'm actually going to be the first person to post a response to Beth's questions for us! A little scary though since we're talking sin...and on that lovely note...I loved the point that Jerry (we're on a first name basis with the author right?!?) made about the softening of the language of sin in our culture and in our churches. Especially loved the examples of not committing adultery but instead having an affair and not stealing but committing fraud (Pg 19). This is so true! I think that even in church we tend to focus a lot more on grace and less on sin which in some sense is good cuz we've been saved only through grace BUT as a girl who has grown up in the church it's hard to realize how AWESOME the gift of grace is unless we realize how BAD the sin is...does that make sense at all?!? I can literally remember the one Sunday School teacher that I had that called us sinners...I couldn't believe it!! I was in fifth grade and I can still remember...so that must mean that sin wasn't mentioned ALL that much where I grew up...
Back to realizing the awesome gift of grace...I'll never forget when I went to T.E.C...for those of you who've never been basically certain teens give their testimonies and it's pretty moving...ANYWAYS...I remember hearing their stories and feeling like maybe I needed to have "bigger sins" to be able to say that I was "saved"...they had been saved from a life of drugs, alcohol, and sexual sins and what had I been saved from?? Maybe a better background in my inherent sinful nature would have shown me that truly I didn't need to turn from drugs to be saved. I had (and still have) plenty of sins to be saved from!! As Jerry writes, "We often indulge in what I call the "respectable" or "acceptable" sins without any sense of sin". I'm thankful for this study to give me a better understanding of the sins that I commit!
I also loved his quote that "we still need the gospel every day" Isn't that so true? It is an ongoing gift that I can truly appreciate more and more through a better understanding of my sinful nature and respectable sins...
I'll quit rambling cuz laundry is done...will write more later...
Hugs to all the NOGGIES!! (And yes that word has stuck for our group I believe!!)
Funny, Sheila, those examples were things I'd underlined as well and used them for discussion in my Beth Moore Daniel study today. Gotta love how these studies all weave together so well.
I guess this is simplistic, but I see that softening as really just pulling us further from truth. It totally reminds me of how the serpent manipulated words to have Eve thinking something different than what God told her. They were so minor they seemed harmless (or true) to her.
I can see I'm going to need to put my book by the PC when I'm not reading it so I can more easily reference it. I'm too tired to go upstairs to get it rihgt now. Off to bed (yawn :-O zzzzzz)
Finally! That was like torture! I was determined I would not be the first person to post a comment this time, so thank you, Sheila and Nancy, for putting me out of my misery! :) I probably only have a few minutes because I can hear a baby stirring from her nap….
I got a kick out of Sheila's story about being appalled when a Sunday school teacher called them sinners. That’s so telling of our view of sin and of ourselves! I definitely grew up in a very self-righteous, pharisee-like, "at least I'm not as bad as them," mentality. Oh, what stories we would probably be able to share along those lines if we were together in person…
And Nancy, to put it so simply and straightforward-ly (is that a word?) makes it seem so…. simple and straightforward! It’s just pulling us further from truth. That makes me a little angry about it, because that reminds me that this is a battle and every step further from the truth we take is a victory for the Enemy. (It’s a good kind of righteous anger… the kind that makes me feel motivated to fight against the ways the devil tries to suck me in.)
One of the things that struck me was reviewing the story of David and the prophet Nathan and how clearly it showed the way our denial of our sinfulness can blind us to huge failings in our lives. I’m so much like David…getting worked up at the sin I see in other peoples’ lives and failing to recognize it in my own. I think part of that stems from a distorted view of grace. I can both “presume upon God’s grace,” as the book said, and become apathetic about my sin, and I also can feel like I have to earn God’s grace, and then I want to hide my respectable sins so I’ll seem like I’m worthy. Either way, it boils down to me not wanting to take responsibility for my own sin.
So that’s my action step for this week… simply being intentional about watching out for my own respectable sin areas (yesterday after school I had to apologize to my kids for being impatient and irritable with them before school! Sadly, it is such a common thing that they didn’t even remember….) I also have been trying to hold my tongue in an attempt to take every thought captive when there are thought areas that I know are sinful (resentment or judgments, etc.), but I’m struggling with that one so far. It’s so easy to feel justified when I know I’m right. But I’m going to keep at it because I don’t want to tolerate in myself anything that God does not tolerate.
And I just have to ask… Did anyone else write down “see entire table of contents” when it asked which respectable sins might be in your life?!?
Hello!
Well, I must say that this book is going to make me uncomfortable. I know this is only the tip of the iceberg as we will dive deeper into these respectable sins. I also know that I will continue to be shocked at my complacency when it comes to my view of how "sinful" I am. Did anyone else read the first three chapters and think - even though I know my heart knows the truth - is it really THAT bad to complain? Or where do I draw the line at venting vs. complaining? Or how else will I detox about things that happen during my day - am I supposed to just pray and expect that "one-sided conversation" to be "enough" for me?
Yep, I wrote it. On the blog. Preserved forever in cyberspace.
I mean that is the ugliness of my heart. Smashing right up in your face. How do you like me now???
Seriously, I agree with Tiff when I consider "my" respectable sins ... uh, table of contents to go, please?
There was a lot of good - uncomfortable - stuff in the first three chapters. Some items I highlighted:
p. 23 "Sin is a spiritual and moral malignancy. Left unchecked, it can spread throughout our entire inner being and contaminate every area of our lives. EVEN WORSE, it often will metastasize from us into the lives of OTHER believers around us ..."
Um yeah. I am pretty sure the Holy Spirit has been trying to tell me this for years. I have often felt discomfort as I realize that certain co-workers I might complain to begin to complain with me ... I have often thought, I did that to them. I opened up the can of worms or, I've created a monster.
That shames me.
I think what also shames me is that I must not care what God thinks. Truly. Isn't that what Jerry is trying to tell us throughout most of chapter 3? Christ suffered for our sins, He offered us grace despite our sins ... and here I am just sinning away without a moments thought and I wonder why I feel like my prayers aren't heard, or that I don't understand what God is doing or not doing ...
I am praying that God will show me how HOLY and SOVEREIGN and AUTHORITATIVE He is ... maybe then I'll care? I just need a triple bypass or something.
I want to just say that I resonate with what all of you have said and like Rochelle the topic of sin makes me uncomfortable (why wouldn't it?!?) And as for your post...I love you even more now HONEST Rochelle!!
I had also underlined the part about sin being a malignancy that can metastasize into the lives of other believers. I was struck by his comment on pg 24 that "If I gossip I both tear down another person and corrupt the mind of my listener"...I had never thought of corrupting someone else's mind before by gossiping. Interesting though I had thought about corrupting someone else with the tongue when others do it (by swearing, using the Lord's name in vain, etc). Wow...I have felt pretty good about myself that I live at a "higher moral standard than society at large" (pg 24). Too bad that's not the way it works!!
I've been thinking about how we all haven't been blogging that much but it's hard to put these ugly things down in writing isn't it?!?
Ah refreshing! The thoughts of my Noggies are so refreshing! I can feel "normal" again for a bit. So what I'm saying is that I resonate with everything that everyone has said so far!
I particularly resonate with Rochelle's thoughts about being shocked at my own complacency in regard to my sin. It shows me how skewed my view of God is. In one of my college classes we talked about "cheap grace," and that has always stuck with me--how we forget how expensive that gift of grace really was for the Lord and just take it for granted.
So I feel like it's once again learning to live in the balance between grace and truth. I want a heart so pure that it can't tolerate any sin, yet I also want the ability to receive God's mercy without guilt or shame. Basically I want to see the world and myself with a perfect, eternal perspective. I underlined this quote on p. 16 that talks about that: "One of our problems, however, is that we neither think of ourselves as saints--with our new state's concurrent responsibility to live as saints--nor do we think of such actions as our gossip and impatience as sin." So I have a wrong perspective on the way God sees me (as a saint) and the way I see my sin (as not that bad). How is that possible? I think I'm too bad to be a saint but too good to be a sinner?? Help, Lord!
I, too, want to get to the point where Jesus is enough. I think that's the lie that most often leads to "respectable sinning" for me. Like Rochelle said, I just need to "vent" (another word to avoid the word sin), or I can't feel better if I don't just get this out. Or sometimes, sadly, yes, I know it's wrong, but it will feel good because I know she'll agree with me. I want a pure heart! I want a heart that knows that God is holy and Jesus is enough for every aspect of my life.
It is just plain uncomfortable, but He must increase and we must decrease!
I love that you guys can say what I'm thinking and feeling in a way that makes much more sense than when I try to say it myself. I already commented on a couple of Sheila and Nancy's comments, and I pretty much could just do a copy and paste of Rochelle's (minus the witty lines, of course.) Here's specifically what Beth stole from my cluttered mind today and put down coherently:
So I have a wrong perspective on the way God sees me (as a saint) and the way I see my sin (as not that bad). How is that possible? I think I'm too bad to be a saint but too good to be a sinner?? Help, Lord!
I started a comment 3 times trying to say that and it never came out right. So for today I will just say, "Ditto what Beth said."
Here's a question for you all: Does anyone else struggle as I do with just not feeling like I know how to really feel intimate enough with Jesus to be changed by it in the deepest places of my heart. Honestly, sometimes I just plain forget/ignore that what I do is a sign of how I view His gift of grace to me because I'm just so focused on me and the here and now. And sometimes my desire to be obedient is more just because I know I should want to be than it is truly wanting to be, if that makes any sense. Sometimes it still feels a lot like a legalistic list of things I should and shouldn't do if I want to keep God happy with me. Not always, but sometimes.
I know that part of that struggle for me is the expectation of myself that if I really get it--come to know Jesus more and have a true desire to be more like Him--I won't continue to struggle with these sins. Yeah, right. I'm pretty sure that's a lie from the Devil intended to keep me discouraged, but I still think that way sometimes. I know that what's really true is what Pastor Kevin has often said... Evidence of repentance and maturing is that we truly are becoming quicker at recognizing sin and turning from it, but we won't ever be rid of it in this life. But I still struggle with knowing whether I want to be more Christ-like because I should want that, or if I really, truly want it because of a purely motivated heart. It reminds me of what we talked about following Beth's "Do I Really Want It?" post back in July.
Anyway, along with "most frequent blog checker," I intend to win the "using the most words to say the least" award for our blog. (You guys didn't know there were awards, did you!?! :))
I, too, am so refreshed and encouraged by each of you. Thank you, friends!
Wow, it's Friday and I have some catching up to do. YOur posts have all said a lot of what I have read and thought about through this book study also.
It seems like all I do is sin. If I'm not anxious about getting to work on time or I'm hollering at my daughter to just listen to me, then I am frustrated at work with other staff members who don't follow through with things. Like I am so in the 'know' but I'm really not. I haven't always thought of those things as sin. But I can't stop being frustrated at times. I should go straight to Him in prayer and not turn to my first friend at work to complain and judge someone else. Who am I? Why can't I just worry about my own life and better myself by keeping His WORD in my mind and heart? This is very hard to confront myself and I am so convicted to not be judgemental, but then wham! I do it again!
I know we have to go through all this bad stuff to get to the good.
I can't wait for the good, good news that Jerry promises is coming in this book! :)
So, I am going to post two phrases from the book on my mirror for my personal sanity...
1) God, be merciful to me, a sinner (Luke 18:13) p 19 in book.
2) I am a great sinner, but I have a great Savior (p32 John Newton).
I just want to reiterate the fact that it's both uncomfortable and un-fun to think about the respectable sins in my life. I'm in the same spot as Teresa, feeling like all I do is sin.
I'm coming off a weekend that I feel like I've been especially judgmental, mostly just internally, and when I arrived at church this morning, I quickly realized what that had done to my intimacy with Jesus. Instead of feeling alive and worshipful, I spent my time during the service confessing and just trying to get my heart right again. My judgmental attitude had become a hard cover over my heart and made me unable to get to the good parts of my heart buried deeper. I hate feeling like that.
The real struggle for me is figuring out how to deal with thoughts and feelings that are not necessarily wrong without taking them in the wrong directions of judgment, frustration or outright anger. That may make no sense, so I'll try to explain. For example, this weekend some of the things that frustrated me with some people I spent time with are because I see great discrepancies in behavior and what they profess, and I deeply want something more for them. That ultimately is a good desire, but rather than honestly express that or show compassion, I simply become frustrated that things aren't changing or people aren't acting "right," which does no one any good and actually makes me feel much worse. I honestly don't know how to do it any differently, but I want to learn.
Anyway, this post is getting too long and it's bed time! I say a big "yes" to Tiff's question about the difficulty of intimacy with Jesus, but I am so thankful that when I confess, He is "faithful and just to forgive...and cleanse" me. I'm both thankful and distraught to examine my respectable sins, but ultimately I want God to purify my heart as I learn to walk in His grace, so if that means facing my "crap," then so be it, I guess!
wow, enough from me!
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